My point is to get people's opinion of not just the 1006 number but how the ARC staff broke down those numbers into different categories. Obviously, the ARC staff felt that the person's status was important in determining culpability of the organization in these terrible acts.
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
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161
ARC Analysis Summary of Case Files
by Richard Oliver ini have been doing research on the arc as some people on here have suggested.
i find it interesting on the case file analysis some of the findings.
it looks like queensland and new south wales had the biggest problems with this.
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161
ARC Analysis Summary of Case Files
by Richard Oliver ini have been doing research on the arc as some people on here have suggested.
i find it interesting on the case file analysis some of the findings.
it looks like queensland and new south wales had the biggest problems with this.
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Richard Oliver
I have been doing research on the ARC as some people on here have suggested. I find it interesting on the Case File Analysis some of the findings.
It looks like Queensland and New South Wales had the biggest problems with this. Which makes sense because just some quick research it seems like that is the most populous parts of Australia.
But it seems like over half of the cases that the ARC is looking at happened within the family of the perpetrator. Certainly, many would contest that they could have done more after the fact to support the victim and ensure that the offender went to jail, but sadly probably very little could have been done to prevent that terrible act. And even those that were Elders or servants at the time of the abuse 54 of the 104 occurred in the family of the appointed man.
And of course, allegations at any time in Watchtower history doesn't remove how horrible it is to the victim. In Australia, only 5 cases of appointed men being accused of child abuse has occurred in the last 10 years.
199 offenders had no connection to Watchtower other than the victim was either a JW or a child of a JW. Along with 287 offenders were parishioners of the church and had no official role within the church other than being members. That leaves only 50 offenders since 1950 that were either an elder or an MS when the act occurred.
I will have to say the troubling number is that 9 of these accused offenders were reappointed as either an MS or an elder and 1 was appointed as an elder by mistake when they moved to Australia from another country. That I do have to agree with everyone on here that those men should never have been allowed back in as an elder or a servant. That is putting people in a position of trust that should not be. I don't know if those 9 men did anything to children, but they did something not responsible that allowed themselves to even allow the accusation to occur.
I know there has been a lot of talk about the 1006 number. But I think if you break it down like the commission did, it is of course terrible but you see some actual data behind those numbers. I wanted to get peoples thoughts on that.
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Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw how about you stop being a bastard and name calling people and be a freaking adult. Buy group. You won't hear from me again. And I am sure plenty of people will be ecstatic by that and good for them. I don't care anymore. Do whatever the hell you want and want to believe.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
The point of my posting this thread and many people have recognized it. It was to highlight that as a society we need to focus on things that are verifiably true and things that masquerade as fact even though they are opinion or feelings. Again I have stated this before, I never intended to bring up me being gay until someone questioned if I truly had a problem with Watchtower teaching. And this portion about a high control organization started because you used an analogy of two people in an abusive relationship. I didn't accept your claim that it is a high control organization and it just spun into this place.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Honestly i am not going to describe my feelings on this in this forum because all it would do is start an argument. I am not intending to start an argument and a debate on Watchtower as being a high control organization.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Again orphan crow. I never contended that some people cannot say that Watchtower is a high control organization. I just said it is not a verifiable fact. And all it would lead to is an argument. That is not my intention to lead to an argument. You just feel that if you say that they are one then every reasonable person should view it too. Unless it is a generally accepted fact by either the general public or by experts in the field then it is just an opinion. You want no one to disagree with you but you feel that you can disagree with anyone you want to. Again I never said that you don't feel that they are. It is clear that you feel that way. But it is not a generally accepted fact.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Finkeinstein:
My point is that it is not a verifiable fact. It is an opinion based on people's perception and experiences. Again I repeatedly said that it does not take away how people feel. But how people feel and what their opinion is, does not mean it is a fact. It is a fact for them but doesn't mean it is a fact for anyone.
Also I now that people have committed suicide. I have suffered from deep clinical depression in the past and at times at present. And, again this is my opinion, it is not right to claim that a suicide is caused by one factor. Suicide is a horrible event that affects not just the one that loses their life but also their family and friends who rarely ever recover from that lost. I have known gay friends to have attempted to commit suicide and I have even contemplated it at on a few occasions. At times I contemplated it because I felt like a failure, at other times due to my sexuality and still at other times due to other struggles I was facing at that exact moment. And there is a New Zealand psychologist on this site, and I don't know him personally but I am sure he can attest that in his experience and in his studies that he has found that suicide or attempts of suicide is caused by a number of factors in a persons life. Please don't try and say that people commit suicide for the exclusive reason that they are either gay or a witness. There are a number of factors that play into that kind of dispair.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Orphan Crow: Your last statement does highlight again what a subjective analysis is and what an objective analysis is. Again, we may have different definitions for those two terms, and I provided you with the definition that I am using, which again are recognized definitions.
I used the analogy of weight to define my definition of objective and subjective information. A scale shows an actual fact which is objective, no reasonable person can dispute what the scale says. Though, the perception of if something is heavy or not, depends on a person's objective observation of the item.
You wrote this:
Richard, why do you need a peer reviewed article that specifically states that? Are you not capable of rationally analyzing this on your own? Can you not access a list of characteristics of a high control group and compare it to the WTS?
It is a simple exercise that does not require peer reviewed articles that directly speak of the WTS. There is plenty of information from recognized mental health professionals that lay down the parameters of what defines a high control group. You are fully capable of inserting "characteristics of a high control group" into your search engine and rationally choosing those sources that are attached to a mental health professional that has at least a PHD from a credible university.
The bold is my emphasis. You state that one has to take the information and decide if a group falls under the parameters of a high control organization. So an analysis has to be made of the parameters and the evidence that is being presented of the organization. But the key word that you used is "analyzing" that requires a person to take their own perceptions of a matter into account.
And here is a definition of analysis:
detailed examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis for discussion or interpretation.
And yes you are right analysis requires a detailed examination, but notice the last word in the definition that is interpertation. Interperterpation is therefor defined as:
to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance
So again it is subjective.
That is why mental health counseling can be such a tricky issue. We saw this in a posting just recently where a poster had an issue with the fact that their counselor feels that leaving Watchtower is a personal choice, I am sorry for not remembering the exact term that was used. But the point that I am making is, that if you put into a room 100 psychiatrist, psychologist and mental health counselors, and gave them the exact same scenario, you would probably get a wide variety of opinions as to the cause of it. There would certainly be some overlap in thought and diagnosis but you wouldn't get a universal consensus on all of the claims.
And again like I said earlier. If it would be a generally accepted fact in the mental health profession that Watchtower is a high control organization, there would be people in that profession who would say so in a journal article that has been reviewed and accepted by their colleagues.
Again I am not disputing that you and many other people feel that Watchtower is such, but again that is your opinion and you and everyone else is entitled to that. I never disputed that you and others may have been hurt by Watchtower. I never disputed that you may have felt that you were controlled by Watchtower. But those are your opinions and your feelings. I nor no one else can take those away from you, but you cannot claim that your opinion and your feelings are facts for anyone other than you, those are your facts those may not be the facts for someone else.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Orphan crow.. I ask for a peer review article because you make it sound like it is a standard fact. And you have made it sound like it is a fact that watchtower is a high control organization. It is this well accepted fact you can present at least one peer reviewed article that says that. There are plefty of peer reviewed journals that discuss cults and high control organizations. So either it is an opinion that people have about it or it is a fact. If it is a fact there should be at least one professional who is willing to make the statement and have a group of their colleagues agree with them.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Orphan crow. If you want to call this a fact. Please provide me with a peer reviewed article that shows that someone with mental health education and expertise that states that watchtower is a high control organization. And to be clear a peer reviewed article would be in a journal that would be such as the Journal of the American Medical Association.